AOS for Lemmy.World - A generic Lemmy server for everyone to use.

Why does Lemmy.ML admire authoritarian regimes ?

166291

1d 1h ago by lemmy.zip/u/Valuy in asklemmy

Many people on lemmy.ml deeply respect and admire authoritarian governments and organizations.

Iran, China, North Korea, Soviet Union...

The West has many flaws. But our flaws are nothing compared to these guys.

Iran hangs homosexuals. Iran shot 30,000 people in less than than 2 weeks. The Soviet Union had to build a fucking Iron wall to prevent people from escaping. The Soviets lied about the Chernobyl nuclear explosion. China censors the internet. China wants to eliminate Islam. North Korea is a totalitarian hellscape. Watching anime is a crime.

Why is lemmy.ml so fascinated with authoritarians?

In my experience the attitude of many of the more prolific users there is something like "America and the West are doing evil things, so their enemies must be the good guys". Atrocities by Western-aligned states are readily accepted as facts, but those committed by countries on "their" side never happened and are merely Western propaganda. They'll cite North Korea's constitution to "prove" that it's a free and democratic country, but when you point out reports showing that the reality on the ground is quite different from what's written in the constitution, that's of course just Western propaganda and the people who fled the country are being paid to spread lies. That dismissive attitude makes it impossible to have a serious discussion with them.

That said, I now have a solid blocklist of their "worst offenders" and found that there are plenty of people with way more balanced opinions as well.

58 replies

“America and the West are doing evil things, so their enemies must be the good guys”

It's illuminating. I used to be a hardcore anarco-capitalist/radical libertarian and that community had exactly the same thought pattern:

Vietnam/Middle East show how USA lies for domination
Snowden showed how CIA/NSA lies for control
Markets showed how the Fed lies for moneyed elites

... and so on, so that it becomes a given truth that everything the government says is a lie, no matter what.

So then COVID comes along and all the libertarians are "FAUCI LIES! COVID IS JUST FLU!"
A few months (and a lot of Russian influence ) later, these people are believing that mRNA vaccines cause heart disease, etc etc etc

ANYWAY, what's interesting to me is how these two diametrically opposed ideological communities -- Tankies and AnCaps -- have almost exactly the same group dynamics pathology.

Wait until you read what real anarchists think of AnCaps.

ofc you understand AnCaps feel the same way about AnComs; that they're fundamentally a contradiction

If one lacks compassion, then of course they won't understand how someone can choose to support their community even without the government making them do it.

it's because they want to feel special.

the root of so much of the people that get caught in these delusional thought pattern is simple massive insecurity. and by clinging to a delusion you can mask it with a feeling of superiority because you KNOW THE TRUTH.

same reason people get recruited into cults. the cultists specifically target insecure people they can emotionally exploit and isolate. they are not interested in secure people who are grounded in reality, because there is nothing for their manipulation tactics to work on.

extremist politics also always become quasi-religions, or merge with fundamentalist religious belief.

superiority because you KNOW THE TRUTH

Oh God yes, this this this!!

The Conspiracy folks all really get off on being Smarter Than You because the have Access to the Secret Knowledge. Once you have seen the evidence (eg "Fahrenheit 451") and started associating yourself with "like-minded people", then you too will become an Anointed One.

Culty culty cult

It is very seductive for people who feel their intellect and insights are not being seen.

Relevant Contrapoints: https://youtu.be/teqkK0RLNkI

Edit: lol at the .mls downvoting this

I can't help but laugh at the absurdity of "anarcho-capitalists". Glad it's past tense for you.

Horseshoe theory strikes again

Atrocities by Western-aligned states are readily accepted as facts, but those committed by countries on "their" side never happened and are merely Western propaganda

You'll never find more staunch and nuanced criticism of socialist mistakes than that which takes place within socialism. It's through communists that I learned and loathed things such as the deportation of ethnic Koreans in THE USSR, the actual scope and mechanisms and functioning of the GULAG system, or the anti-landlord revolts in China.

I highly encourage you to actually go with an open mind, and have an honest conversation with a comrade like @Cowbee@lemmy.ml or @AnarchoBolshevik@lemmygrad.ml about any of those topics. Not an argument, just a discussion to listen to what they have to say. You may be surprised.

Of course those people exist. Heck, I consider myself a socialist and the socialist party in my country has no issues whatsoever criticizing countries like China or North Korea. But those kind of nuanced opinions aren't really the ones you'll find over and over again on the frontpage of ml.

Of the users you named, I only know Cowbee, as Lemmygrad is defederated anyway. He's definitely very knowledgable about communist theory and he's capable of having an actual discussion, yes. Not even close to one of the worst users over there. But from my discussions with him, he's quite obsessed with theory over practice and is perfectly willing to defend the IMO indefensible regime of North Korea.

I don't put theory over practice, they are both crucial. I am perfectly willing to defend the DPRK from Yeonmi Park-style nonsense as it's the most propagandized against country in the world. Is it perfect? No, no country is, but it also isn't literally hell on Earth either, it's a real socialist state that does a lot with how little they have due to sanctions, similar to Cuba (and both Cuba and the DPRK have historically been on great terms, which is a good litmus test to begin with).

the socialist party in my country has no issues whatsoever criticizing countries like China or North Korea

But they exclusively criticise said countries, no praise for their achievements. Assuming you're from the EU/US/Canada/Australia, your "socialist" party offers no alternative to Capitalism, just milquetoast reforming at best and continuation of austerity policy (as for the past 20 years) at worst. If they don't want off capitalism, they can hardly call themselves socialists.

But they exclusively criticise said countries, no praise for their achievements.

No, that's entirely untrue. They (Die Linke in Germany FYI) have frequently praised China's economic system and social progress, while still criticizing its authoritarianism and aggressive foreign policy.

Die Linke? Die "Israel's right to exist is non-negotiable" Linke? If "socialists" are Zionist they're not socialists.

Also, Germany saying that a country's foreign policy is aggressive is laughable. At least Chinese men below 45 can leave their country without notifying their army lmfao

So instead of staying on-topic (the claim that Western socialist parties never praise China's achievements), you're somehow trying to deflect the topic to Israel when disproven. Then instead of judging China's foreign policy on its own merit, you go all "what about" and with false, outdated information as well. And that's supposed to be the "honest conversation" you were talking about? Yeah no. It's exactly what I described in my initial post. My blocklist grows by 1 today.

Keep supporting "socialist" pro-Israel parties, you keep proving us how much German "leftists" care about non-germans. Bunch of fucking Nazis supporting genocide.

Criticise China, support Israel, what a fucking great socialist party!

And you still think that communism is the way? If so you're just spreading their propaganda.

It did volunteerly kill millions, and still is in its remnants of russia for example. If you need a nuanced person to "open your eyes" for the atrocities made in URSS/USSR why not talk with a nuanced nazi, you might learn that they too did bad things. /s

Those discussions are such shit shows, stop trying to reanimate the old horrors of past, we actually have new interesting theories that might actually work without killing everyone.

It did volunteerly kill millions

Yeah, killing Nazis and landlords is necessary for progress sometimes, not something to criticise. Those are the vast majority of the people communism killed on purpose.

If you need a nuanced person to "open your eyes" for the atrocities made in URSS/USSR why not talk with a nuanced nazi

Because you're committing a fallacy by comparing the two. Socialism has achieved, in practice, lowest inequality where it has been applied, universal healthcare, universal education, guaranteed employment, guaranteed housing, guaranteed state pensions for retirees, redistribution of land from landlords and nobility to peasants... In my homeland of Spain we had fascism, and it literally fought against all those things, we still have plenty of people in their 70s and 80s who cannot even read as a consequence. Communism saved Europe from Fascism, they're literally the antithesis.

stop trying to reanimate the old horrors of past

Stop trying to maintain capitalism by fighting against the only system in history which has proven it can destroy it and improve our lives.

The old: if you're not with me you Must be pro USA/Capitalism.

Is that all you got?

Also the millions killed I referred to were the direct orders from stalin to kill millions of their own people (holodomor included).

But that's just propaganda from "the west" right?

direct orders from stalin to kill millions of their own people (holodomor included).

You're literally making that up, though. Executions in the USSR aren't numbered in the millions during the great terror, and holodomor was an unintentional famine, nobody was "killed", it's the result of unintentional side effects of the first successful mass collectivization in human history. The Soviet leaders knew the process would be chaotic if they embarked in rapid collectivization as they did, but it was a necessary choice enforced by the threat of external invasion and the need for rapid industrialization. It was a hard measure but it worked, and thanks to the rapid collectivization and industrialization, the soviets could create the industry that would 15 years later enable them to defeat Nazism, saving many more tens of millions than were lost in Holodomor.

See? We can do nuanced analysis of the policy. However, if you make ahistorical claims, such as "Stalin ordering the holodomor" (which is untenable under modern historiography), you'll get called out for it.

For clarity, clashes between the kulaks and Red Army absolutely happened during collectivization in the 1930s, and many kulaks were killed as they took up arms to defend their bourgeois lifestyle. I'm not shedding tears for them just like I won't shed tears for Nazis, landlords, etc, but these clashes did happen.

I did specify the great terror, for the most part the destiny of Kulaks in the early 1930s was sentenced by peasant trials, not by the Red Army. If I'm not wrong, most Kulaks who died during collectivization weren't executed, they died during deportation.

Ah, gotcha. Definitely agree that the majority of the kulaks were dealt with by the peasantry that were under their thumb, just wanted to point out that frustrations between kulaks and the Red Army did happen.

Stalin never gave direct orders to kill millions of soviet citizens, nor indirect. Even the Great Purge never exceeded ~700,000 sentencings to death, and was stopped because these sentencings far exceeded what Stalin and Molotov had set at a maximum number, which was around 70,000. The famine in the 1930s was not intentionally caused even if you believe it to have been amplified by mismanagement, either.

Once discovered that a famine was occuring, the soviets did what they could to prevent and alleviate it once it had started. The idea of an intentional famine is simply fringe among contemporary historians, same with claims of white genocide in South Africa. For example, serious bourgeois academic sources tend to say it was a failure of planning, rather than intentional and genocide. For instance, Mark Tauger wrote:

[data] indicate that the famine was real, the result of a failure of economic policy, of the 'revolution from above,' rather than of a 'successful' nationality policy against Ukrainians or other ethnic groups.

Tauger believes it was a failure of economic policy, not an intentional attack on ethnic Ukrainians. The 1930s famine was a combination of drought, flooding, and mismanagement. Further, the Kulaks, wealthy bourgeois farmers, magnified matters by killing their own crops in the midst of a famine rather than letting the Red Army collectivize them. The Politburo was also kept in the dark about how bad the famine was getting:

From: Archive of the President of the Russian Federation. Fond 3, Record Series 40, File 80, Page 58.

Excerpt from the protocol number of the meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist party (Bolsheviks) “Regarding Measures to Prevent Failure to Sow in Ukraine, March 16th, 1932.

The Political Bureau believes that shortage of seed grain in Ukraine is many times worse than what was described in comrade Kosior’s telegram; therefore, the Political Bureau recommends the Central Committee of the Communist party of Ukraine to take all measures within its reach to prevent the threat of failing to sow [field crops] in Ukraine.

Signed: Secretary of the Central Committee – J. STALIN

Letter to Joseph Stalin from Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine regarding the course and the perspectives of the sowing campaign in Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.

There are also isolated cases of starvation, and even whole villages [starving]; however, this is only the result of bungling on the local level, deviations [from the party line], especially in regard of kolkhozes. All rumours about “famine” in Ukraine must be unconditionally rejected. The crucial help that was provided for Ukraine will give us the opportunity to eradicate all such outbreaks [of starvation].

Letter from Joseph Stalin to Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.

Comrade Kosior!

You must read attached summaries. Judging by this information, it looks like the Soviet authority has ceased to exist in some areas of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. Can this be true? Is the situation in villages in Ukraine this bad? Where are the operatives of the OGPU [Joint Main Political Directorate], what are they doing?

Could you verify this information and inform the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist party about taken measures.

Sincerely, J. Stalin

Muggeridge and Jones reported on the famine. Völkischer Beobachter reported on it as intentional, and then spread the story around further. Why would the soviets try to starve their own people? It was because of the soviets and collectivization of agriculture that famine was ended, and that's why outside of wartime the 1930s famine was the final famine in those regions, with life expectancies doubling.

Overall, trying to hold on to red scare historiography does absolutely nothing to help the cause of socialism. The soviet archives have provided a wealth of knowledge largely affirming the communist narrative, and debunking liberal and fascist narratives about existing socialism. If you consider yourself a leftist of any sort, then you'll inevitably run into people using the red scare against you too, so perpetuating their mythos just shoots your own movement in the foot.

Wow, one minute and downvoted.

Guess that's all you have left.

And you still think that communism is the way? If so you’re just spreading their propaganda.

Socialism in real life has achieved the absolute highest rates of improvement for the working classes in terms of life metrics, immense social equality, and has presented a path forward in an era of dying capitalist imperialism. You're spreading propaganda too, knowingly or not, given that propaganda is merely agitating for your own beliefs.

It did volunteerly kill millions, and still is in its remnants of russia for example.

The "millions intentionally killed" by socialism consist of landlords, capitalists, fascists, the Nazis, etc. Socialism has never killed people willy-nilly, but has run into conflict with the old ruling classes time and time again, as socialism is the establishment of working class power over the former ruling classes.

If you need a nuanced person to “open your eyes” for the atrocities made in URSS/USSR why not talk with a nuanced nazi, you might learn that they too did bad things. /s

This implies the communists and Nazis are equal evils, a form of Holocaust trivialization called Double Genocide Theory. Communists, upon gaining politucal power, did and do their best to uplift the lives of working people. The Nazis on the other hand built industrialized mass murder, and attempted to colonize Europe the way Europe had colonized the world.

Those discussions are such shit shows, stop trying to reanimate the old horrors of past, we actually have new interesting theories that might actually work without killing everyone.

What are these theories? Any establishment of socialism will necessarily put you into conflict with the ruling classes of capitalism. Socialism historically has not been a "horror" for the working classes, and as such has been popularly supported by them. A theory being "interesting" doesn't make it practical, nor is socialism "killing everyone."

Above all, here, you cling to vagueposting. You erase class analysis, weeping for killed Nazis, and when it comes time to present a solution, you just say "other things might work" without elaborating. It's sterile and negative "left" criticism that serves nobody.

Lol ok genocide lover, if it's the URSS doing it, it's okay.

Blocked.

I despise genocide, what the hell is that pivot? The USSR never committed genocide, this is backed up by modern historical analysis. Are you calling killing Nazis "genocide?"

The Holodomor was a genocide

No, it was not. Once discovered that a famine was occuring, the soviets did what they could to prevent and alleviate it once it had started. The idea of an intentional famine is simply fringe among contemporary historians, same with claims of white genocide in South Africa. For example, serious bourgeois academic sources tend to say it was a failure of planning, rather than intentional and genocide. For instance, Mark Tauger wrote:

[data] indicate that the famine was real, the result of a failure of economic policy, of the 'revolution from above,' rather than of a 'successful' nationality policy against Ukrainians or other ethnic groups.

From: Archive of the President of the Russian Federation. Fond 3, Record Series 40, File 80, Page 58.

The Political Bureau believes that shortage of seed grain in Ukraine is many times worse than what was described in comrade Kosior’s telegram; therefore, the Political Bureau recommends the Central Committee of the Communist party of Ukraine to take all measures within its reach to prevent the threat of failing to sow [field crops] in Ukraine.

Signed: Secretary of the Central Committee – J. STALIN

There are also isolated cases of starvation, and even whole villages [starving]; however, this is only the result of bungling on the local level, deviations [from the party line], especially in regard of kolkhozes. All rumours about “famine” in Ukraine must be unconditionally rejected. The crucial help that was provided for Ukraine will give us the opportunity to eradicate all such outbreaks [of starvation].

Letter from Joseph Stalin to Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.

Comrade Kosior!

You must read attached summaries. Judging by this information, it looks like the Soviet authority has ceased to exist in some areas of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. Can this be true? Is the situation in villages in Ukraine this bad? Where are the operatives of the OGPU [Joint Main Political Directorate], what are they doing?

Could you verify this information and inform the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist party about taken measures.

Sincerely, J. Stalin

Nice copy paste of r/communism talking points you got there

If I have spoken about something before, then there's no advantage to rewriting the same information, is there? Do you dispute any of the evidence I brought? Do you have any of your own? It seems like you're using the fact that this topic has been discussed before as proof of not needing to look at existing evidence, which is blatantly wrong. The fact that communists tend to agree on something is not evidence of it being "false," no matter how much you frame agreement as "talking points."

Either way, I am curious how long it will take you to become a Marxist, given you seem more curious about theory than most anti-communists.

Been a Marxist a while now buddy. I've read most of the foundational texts, much to the detriment of my academic work. The genocidal character doesn't take away from the rapid technological advancements that came from the collectivisation, but facts are facts.

The evidence is there and has been presented by many historians. Most historians agree that the Holodomor was a genocide, but i know all too well the character of your response to this evidence.

Here's a good literature review by Olga Andriewsky that corroborates the genocide view

I know you consider yourself a Marxist, but when you push ideas like "opposing slur usage is idealist," you completely betray any comprehension of what you've read. I'm curious what you consider to be "most of the foundational texts," but either way, simple input does not make one an actual Marxist. That's why theory and practice have to be unified. I don't know if you've moved beyond that particular position, but it's just an example.

The famine was not a genocide. This theory is pushed by liberals and by fascists, but as I already showed, there was no targeting of Ukrainians or any ethnicity, and archival evidence from opening the soviet archives proved definitively that the soviets did all they could to alleviate famine. You haven't actually addressed my claims. Facts are facts.

Care to PM this list of offenders, please? I'm also trying to sanitize my feed.

I blocked the entire lemmy.ml. After a few months of paying attention I found that there were no thoughtful or interesting posts or comments from any user there, only glorification of authoritarians.

i blocked them because .ml users constantly harass me, telling me what a brainwashed idiot I am for not thinking China is a utopia.

That is a good summary.

I don’t block them. I just keep pressing them for an explanation of their personal philosophy. Not regurgitated, preconstructed points, actual personal philosophy. It usually goes “accusation of fascism/zionist”, “bad faith/strawman/red herring/I don’t have to explain it to you”, “you’re a nihilistic anarchist”, non-sequitur, list of actions they’ve taken irl but can’t/won’t break anonymity to prove (anybody can claim they’ve done anything in an anonymous forum), and finally inform me they’re blocking me. I mean, that’s great, block me online. I still exist in the real world and you’re going to have to face me someday. Unless of course you empower your own authoritarian regime that will keep my constant demands for your individual opinion and “nihilistic anarchist” viewpoints blocked from society. Which is what I think they want, zero challenge from any source or counter philosophy.

i feel like thier accusation of zionism, is just the same thing as being anti-semetic in a way too.

I see this refrain a ton but have not had the same experience and I fairly regularly get into arguments with them. I'm perma banned from some communities on those instances cause of the PTBs they are. The worst I received was my first ever "kys" message from one member's alt(but them and their main were handled in pretty short order). But that was one message of harassment, out of the probably hundred or so people I've pissed off so far.

To be very clear, I don't go into their communities looking for fights. But I have 2 big principles I'm not willing to waiver even a tiny bit on. Those being Hasan absolutely shocked his dog, and Harris would in fact have been better than trump.

They just hate me because I have a basic grasp of economics and I don't think businesses and landlords are inherently evil.

Who is Hasan? Some dumbass tiktoker?

don’t think businesses and landlords are inherently evil.

Literally every capitalist theory, from Adam Smith's to Mill, from Hayek to Henry George:

Landlords are inherently evil.

Streamer they worship like maga worship trump.

Why did he shock his dog? Not that there is any reasonable justification, I just want context.

She got up from the bed that was in frame, to walk out of frame.

right, so an abusive narcissistic POS person they wish they could be.

make sense he'd abuse his dog rather than train it. god forbid you like... have empathy or compassion for another living thing and use that to bond with it... lol

i blocked the triads, hexbear, lemmygrad, ml. lemmygrad is less of a problem since i dont see thier posts as much anyways, usually its mostly ml or hexbear, and they have taken over some other instances too.

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5d 10h ago by reddthat.com/u/MrShankles in asklemmy

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