If I engage in anti-government activities and the government harasses my relatives for it, would those relatives be in the right to blame me for them getting harassed?
2d 20h ago by sh.itjust.works/u/DeathByBigSad in asklemmy
Ideologically, no. In reality, yes.
Had you not been participating in the activities, they would likely not have any attention placed on them.
In the same way you are trying to initiate changes by putting pressure on those who you feel are doing wrong, those who feel that YOU are in the wrong will put pressure on you. Harassing your relatives not only puts pressure on you from your relatives, but is also designed to break you emotionally by watching the people you care about be hurt.
I'm not saying it's right, but it's the way things work.
Just because a family is going to predicably do the wrong thing doesn't mean that the wrong thing is somehow right.
"In reality, they're going to both be wrong and argue very loudly that they arent. Take some time to contemplate a good redirection when they try to blame you instead of the facists."
No, they should blame the government.
Even if your anti-government activities are impermissable... the government harassing its citizens is also impermissable. They would be clearly and immediately in the wrong.
So much this!
There are many thought experiments you can make where somebody doesn't take all the precautions in the world and something bad happens to somebody else.
Please try to not to take unnecessary risks, or be reckless, but also don't blame yourself for the unjustifiable harm a third parties reacts with to squash dissent against their oppression.
If I got fucked because of an unnecessary meme over an insecure channel, or similar, I'd think of my friend as stupid in that regard. But I would blame oppressors.
In a sane world, no.
In this world, yes.
That's a form of abuser gaslighting. "Look at what you made me do" they say.
That is a difficult one. When you say anti-government activities, let’s define them.
Are we talking anti-government activities such as joining an extremist group, and literally attempting to overthrow the government? And because of it, the government is now putting pressure on your relatives in an attempt to stop you.
Yeah, I would say your family would have a right to blame you.
Because that is what a government is going to do they’re going to put pressure where they need to to stop you.
On the other hand, let’s say it’s protesting against ice in the current political climate. And now the government is putting pressure on your relatives,.
At that point, technically, you are the one doing the act of protesting so I could see them blaming you, but I could also see them supporting you and blaming the government.
No
From your other comment, China's one of the number one 'spy on citizens' government.
I'm not saying it would be 100% guaranteed, but if you sent them anti-ccp stuff while they're visiting and it got picked up by some ai/algorithm, there's a non-zero chance they could get harassed about it by the government.
No, the perpetrators have free will, they're not levers or natural effects...
Regardless, I think the more important question is (if this is done for social justice and prosociality) what matters more, righteousness or an easy life? Virtue or life itself? Every great person agrees it's the former over the latter, especially when you consider that everyone lives and dies but not everyone's decent, one is free and God-given while the other one is achieved through sacrifice. Having said that, personally, I don't think I would do it if it meant my family would be endangered. Not because I don't agree with these great men but simply because I'm not brave nor selfless (not pious? 😞) enough to sacrifice myself and my loved ones for the sake of building a better world. I don't even think the people of the world deserve it (I might be wrong for thinking this way and definitely wrong for feeling it, may God forgive me but I'm just a man), all they had to do was think just a little bit and do the right thing but they won't even do that, they get distracted with petty things so I'm just gonna move me and my loved ones somewhere safe and I'll let them be sacrificed by their leaders like the confused cattle they decided they'd be. This is why Moses and Jesus, for instance, were such great men: they KNEW they were shepherds, wranglers of mindless, ungrateful beasts, and they still put their lives on the line for it and paid the consequences at every turn.
No. This is the calculus of the oppressive state and why they harrass and threaten relatives to control thought, speech and action abroad.
Don't play the game. Its not your fault that opressors oppress. Let the blame lie at its source. Say what needs to be said. Do what needs to be done.
If your actions bring bullshit into my life I will hold you accountable for that. Yes your relatives would be in the right.
Coming from someone whose two older brothers who spent more time dealing with legal troubles then you can imagine, trust me when I tell you your bullshit won’t affect your relatives.
Legally? Probably not, at least not in most liberal democracies.
Ethically / Emotionally? It depends on how predictable the outcome was.
Was this a highly unexpected outcome that no one would have predicted based on what you were doing? Then its probably not your fault at all.
Were you engaged in conduct that everyone knew would result in this outcome? Then yeah, you made this decision with this in mind and its a cost you were prepared to pay.
I think an important consideration is whether or not your family is ideologically aligned with your actions. Did you do something that they agree with and support or are you doing something that they disagree with in the first place?
Define "in the right".
Basically like: "I sent my brother a meme and government agents harassed him for it. AITA?"
You forcibly brought him in potentially into something he wouldn't knowingly consent to. Id say that makes you more responsible and puts you in the wrong.
If you're all against a government, any government you should probably get organized and form a unified front with set rules of conduct and behaviour about the facade and behaviors you wish to treat that government with.
Strongly organised unity and solidarity is the only way people can take down or protect themselves from government.
If they're not against that government, you should probably organise with people who are.
Unfortunately depending on where you live this may just be reality.
How does a government harrass a relative?
Any concrete example?
How does a government harrass a relative?
Any concrete example?
My family are former Chinese nationals.
Supposedly if you say bad stuff about the PRC government / CCP, they could go after your family members.
My brother is planing to visit China in the near future.
He got mad at me for texting him an anti-CCP joke (both US Phone Numbers) (he's also ideologically anti-CCP tho).
He accused me of intentionally trying to cause trouble for him.
He got mad at me for texting him an anti-CCP joke (both US Phone Numbers)
He's right to be concerned. You should be using Signal far any communication you don't want sucked into a mass-surveillance system (i.e. most communication). He might not want to have Signal installed when he enters China though.
Okay so obviously the government is in the wrong, but texting him about it does seem in bad taste. We aren't in the 90s anymore, you should at least try to be careful. They definitely can get access to what you are texting. I have trouble trusting even a VPN, personally.
"Searching" (actually just destroying) their home (with a warrant of course).
Taking them to a police station for a "talk" or arresting them for a bogus (but legal) reason, and them releasing them, repeatedly.
"Finding" some crimes that these relatives committed that only the state can prove such as tax evasion, money laundering, etc.
Making so that they can't get a job at government institutions (or any company that receives government funding).
Setting bureaucratic roadblocks when they need to interact with the state in some way (if they need to some kind of permit or a license from the government they kiss it goodbye).
Instigating doxxing and bullying campaign on social media (a more recent practice).
Plainly paying someone to beat them up on the street (which the police of course will fail to investigate).
The possibilities are endless.