Muh ICE
1d 23h ago by sopuli.xyz/u/Friendlybirdseggs in politicalmemes from sopuli.xyz
Someone just the other day legit told me about the Tiananman square massacre where the "unarmed police" were faced by "violent students".
Let that sink in.
The police were unarmed‽
I lose faith in humanity every day.
Edit for clarity: found the discussion https://lemmy.today/comment/21301583
Well yeah, haven’t you seen that famous photo of the one brave police officer standing his ground in front of the students in their tanks?
Bruh, I'm not usually this on point about shit. But I'm going to link the actual interaction, cause it's fucking wild(and I said the same shit).
Edit: I comment too much. I've dug through my profile for a few minutes and don't think I'm going to find it. Sorry about the promise not kept.
Edit 2: for anyone curious https://lemmy.today/comment/21301583
Oh well. I was hoping to read it. But I believe you. There was a time when I would never believe stupidity like that can exist. But this is a different timeline.
I fucking found it!
https://lemmy.today/comment/21301583
Difference is in America today the tank would've killed him
That tank was unarmed and had a family.
The police were unarmed‽
Police in the People's Republic of China is normally unarmed (just like police in several other countries, most famously the United Kingdom), so while I don't know anything about whether they had been armed at that time at Tiananmen square, any claim that they were unarmed as usual seems perfectly plausible to me.
But don't forget that the army also was sent in there, very armed.
Students.
Fucking students!
You can't tell me in good faith that they were more armed than the fucking police!
Be real homie, does that make sense in any fucking reality?
You can’t tell me in good faith that they were more armed than the fucking police!
I have no reason to believe that the students were armed either.
And don’t forget that the army also was sent in there, very armed.
What are you arguing?
I'm saying the people in tanks were not unarmed. And the students likely didn't have RPGs.
I'm frustrated trying to understand what you just typed!
The police were not unarmed. As a matter of fact, they had enough arms to murder 512 people that posed no that to the people in fucking tanks!!
What are you arguing?
I'm arguing that any claim that the police was unarmed is perfectly plausible, as this is normal for police in the People’s Republic of China.
I’m saying the people in tanks were not unarmed.
There's absolutely no disagreement about that.
And the students likely didn’t have RPGs.
There's absolutely no disagreement about that.
The police were not unarmed.
Are you sure about that? Where do you have that information from? That would have been most unusual.
Yes. I am sure about that.
Said this in the other post but the bostonians were genuinely the aggressors in this case. There were 3-400 of them armed with clubs and throwing rocks trying to goad 8 british troops to fire at them. The Boston massacre is a piece of colonial propaganda. I am not really a fan of the British but the colonist were a highly reactionary and violent bunch who gave them good reason to fear for their lives. Don't uncritically believe what your middle school history lessons told you about US history.
I get what you're saying but can you be the aggressor when you're fighting against the foot soldiers of tyranny? It's true the colonists weren't the pure-hearted heroes the national myth portrays them as. But that doesn't make the redcoats innocent bystanders. Their occupation was also a form of violence, and sometimes resisting that violence requires a (hopefully lesser) form of violence.
Calling the an 18th century pro liberal government mob reactionary in the context of the times is absurd as well.
You don't know the colonists like I do. My historical focus is indigenous America. They didn't want to break away from the empire for liberal values they wanted to break away because the empire was limiting (though admittedly not very successfully) their theft of indigenous land accomplished through indiscriminate slaughter. Look at the economic basis for their independance rather than their supposed values and the American revolution looks very different.
Don't get me wrong it is more complex than I can put in a small paragraph. There are major differences between colonists in the metropole and colonists on the frontier in that the frontier was far more bloodthirsty. There were also differences between the urban classes but as a whole the colonists were upset over their inability to plunder or benefit from plunder because of British restrictions. A modern example of this dynamic exists in Israel today between the liberal zionists of major urban centers and illegal settlers in the West Bank. They both support the genocide but one of them is far more reactionary due to the hands on nature of their participation. Like in Israel, the liberal values of the metropole stood in stark contradiction with their actions and functioned as a mask that obscures the material reasons for their behavior.
People don't start or fight wars for values they do it to maintain their way of life, no matter how awful that way of life may be for other people.
Oh no I absolutely agree with just about all of that, and the colonists were absolutely violent and self interested. I just don’t think you can call them reactionary in the context. The monarchists were the reactionaries that were only limiting settlement to prevent any further costly wars and keep settlers in their zone of control where they could be taxed, not for any noble cause. I feel like I’m just splitting hairs now though and drifting from your actual point which is valid, that most modern Americans have this flowery and childish view that the revolution was a battle of good vs evil. That never really plays out in reality across time. Those Brits garrisoned in Boston definitely had it coming though.
It seems our issue is that you believe only one side of this conflict can be reactionary. In this case your view is that the colonists are a progressive political force while the British colonial/mercantile monarchy is conservative. I understand how you could see it this way from a purely political perspective in regards to liberal democracy and monarchism. However, I view political organs like this as superstructural manifestations of a material reality.
The colonists and imperial core of England lived very different lives and their mode of production or the way in which they made their livings were distinct from eachother. This was the beginnings of industrial capitalism in europe and as such it was quite tumultuous. Semi-feudal aristocracies were trying to maintain control of their domestic growing bourgeois (because the growth of the bourgeoisie sapped the rural peasant labor force that created aristocratic wealth as the new proletarian class concrentrated into urban centers) through taxation and direct limitations on business while also regularly going to war with eachother. I'm sure you know the story of how this affected the colonies.
Things in the colonies were different though. Unlike europe they had so much fucking land ripe for plunder and unlike europe their mercantile bourgeoisie was on a far looser leash (at least for a time) due to their lack of direct threat to aristocratic land holding. Also unlike europe the constant flux of migrants meant they HAD to expand. The primarily scots-irish frontiersman were largely landless and sought the frontier because the metropolitan bourgeois could not provide enough work for the shear amount of them. If they did not expand westward and acquire land for these landless and jobless immigrants they might end up with some class conflict of their own. Problem is, the imperial core was sorta broke and especially after the French and Indian War it saw conflict with indigenous peoples as not worth it. The colonies had also become somewhat unprofitable to them by this point (which I think was due to the actions of the colonial bourgeoisie on the east coast but it could have been more of a structural thing and I am mostly making an educated guess here). As a result the British aristocracy did all the things I'm sure you already know about to maintain their way of life and as a result of that the colonist said no fuck you that would make our way of life impossible and revolted.
Do you kind see what I mean when I say both were reactionary now? They were both desperately attempting to maintain their way of life and in the case of the colonial bourgeois, their power and priviledge. I agree that some good and "progressive" ideas came out of the American revolutionary period but we must also analyze why they came about, who's interest they served, and to what extent they were applied.
Yeah that all makes sense, I appreciate you taking the time to write it out. I guess the only colonialists I’d really feel comfortable painting as progressive would be the Quakers, and even they had their issues
explaining history to strangers on the internet is a favorite past time for me. I am glad I described it well enough :)
That is also exactly how it is depicted in the John Adams HBO miniseries.
John Adams made this exact defense and was successful
He read it in the Sir Joe Rogan newsletter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalist_(American_Revolution)
You couldn't have picked a worse example