A lot of film critique industry is based upon fart-sniffing snobbery.

It’s like a game of one-upsmanship on how much “meaning” you can invent derive from dull, self-important drudgery and the more masochistic your movie-watching experience, the more “refined” you are.

Source: had to study media crit and industry a lot in school.

That's why I find it important to look at both critic and user reviews. If they agree, they're probably right. If they disagree things get interesting.

If critics liked it, but audiences disliked it, it's probably technically good but boring. If critics disliked it, but audiences liked it, it's probably kinda bad but exciting.

Both are also affected by social media, especially user scores, so if "the Internet" hates/loves something if can be unfairly inflated/deflated.

New, but not brand new, films also usually have a more accurate score. I enjoyed The Godfather, so I would rate it positively, but if I didn't like it I'm probably not rating it at all. I saw it X years ago and unless it was absolutely terrible or I have a vivid memory of disliking it, I'm just going to ignore it.

I imagine if all you do is watch films, you get tired of common stuff. You've seen it before. But if you only watch films sometimes, some of that is still interesting to you.

Kind of like how some video game nerds will be only "only double soj 2x blan Blah is viable" but like other builds do fine for everything except some optional mega bosses

There's a reason McDonald's is popular.

For me, I do enjoy a movie that's deep or well written or has great cinematography, even if it's a bit boring. I also like movies that have entertainment value. Both can exist.

Only gripe I have is shitty popular movies prevent smaller indie movies from being shown at my small town theater.

That's called being a contrarian

The inverse of Rotten Tomatoes is a good measurement of how I'd enjoy a movie.

Film critics are like friends: you need to choose a few that share your taste, and stick with them. For me it's Moviebob, Redletter Media and Patrick H Willems. They appreciate whacky shit as much as I do.

do we really need to know Rocko is an attentive lover with a string of girlfriends that he has no trouble keeping satisfied

How else are we supposed to relate to that character?

Please, dont ever read Stephen kings IT.

Its...deeply fucked up. It includes a child group sex act that happens right before they confront IT directly, which empowers them to defeat it.

The context is more complicated than the above and is partly about a girl addressing being sexually abused by her father and partly about leaving adolesence for adulthood, but it is...a lot.

Like most his books back then, the byline should have said "Cocaine, with Stephen king."

So, anyway, yeah… I don’t know why they left the great pussy tightening subplot out of the movies.

well you know, I'm beginning to think this Coppola fellow simply didn't know true art when he saw it, after reading all that. That could've been a wonderfully surreal addition to spice up the trilogy.

Yeah it's been a long time since I read it but I remember the giant pussy storyline. Seems weird now that you point it out.

From Here to Eternity is like that. The book is truly a great piece of literature, but the movie (made in the 1950s) excises pretty much everything worthwhile in the book. Just as one example, the book has a character who can't get any contact with women in pre-war Hawaii so he starts getting blowjobs from gay men in parks. Eventually he builds up so much guilt from this that he shoots himself in the head in the barracks. I can't remember whether the character was even in the movie but obviously no hint of those activities show up. There's also the main character taking up with a prostitute who is magically not a prostitute at all in the movie.

The book has so much stuff like this in it that I can't understand why they even tried to make a movie out of it in 1953.

God damn, i've never seen a comment that was more fucking correct than this. Bravo.

You DON'T like suck on strangers' balls!

Fully agree about the attention span stuff. I kind of think TV drove it initially, especially animation.

After a season or two The Simpsons started to pick up pace, and for its time it was kind of frenetic. South Park picked up that ball and ran with it. Then when Family Guy came along I thought this is nuts, and I wondered if there wasn't an active effort to erode attention spans on a large scale.

There are plenty of other examples outside animation, but I picked those because they're still well known.

I consider myself fortunate to have seen the progression first hand. And to have had an older boss way back who had an infectious love for well made art, particularly in films.

This video makes some great points about how movies don't feel real anymore. Digital color grading is part of it, but the very short version is that movies don't give us the sensory information or speak to us in the visual language that we need to feel like the movie is real. Watching the video gave me a whole vocabulary for how to critique failings in modern movies.

It at least seems like "the classics" were attentive to the craft. When good direction, lighting, angles, music come together I’m enthralled.

I found Sinners to be nice and slow moving for most of it, plus Pluribus the TV show is slow and but l both are cinematic. They are fewer but not gone.

I've always talked about The Rolling Stones like this. I respect what they did, but I was born when rock had really gone beyond it. The Beatles too for the most part. Even a lot of '80s punk. I wanted faster, heavier, more technical. All the old stuff just felt basic to me, but I know it's a matter of perspective.

I believe there's a copypasta/good comment floating around out there from the reddit days that details everything that has been referenced about the godfather films, and so, if you watch many movies that are popular or considered good, you've already seen almost everything that stands out in the godfather films. Throw in the great many improvements in cameras, acting methods/filming techniques, and the 'drift' that means one generation prefers certain tropes/themes/scenes/actions over others, and of course an older film is going to be less entertaining for us.

And then there's movies like Dr Strangelove, where I had no idea that old movies could be that entertaining still. Though it has been at least a decade since I watched it, I bet it still stands, even if it invented the iconic "ride a nuke like a cowboy" image.

Also the whole Soviets built a doomsday device but didn't tell the world about it, which reality copied (eventually they told the world).

I got to watch this! I didn't know it existed!

Also, check out The Offer on Netflix. It's about the making of the godfather. Was a fun watch.

I think that most of Art needs a bit oft commitment to be consumed and understood, you cannot expect to immediately understand a piece oft Art just because you can see colour and hear sound. It boils down to education, as you need to learn most things in manageable steps. What im saying is: if someone offers to show you something they like, they are likely a good resource to guide you through the experience.

“Oh! you have to go to this 4 hour 17th century italian Opera with me! You will love it!”

So you've never been dragged to Swan Lake?

That's an issue you can run into with many classics. Either they did something so well it's become a trope, or the artistry in it has been refined so much that the original feels like a poor imitation.

A great example in film is Citizen Cane. It used a lot of ground breaking approaches for cinematography and sound design, but those things aren't ground breaking anymore, so watching it now doesn't have the same "excitement". A more modern example might be Toy Story; the animation doesn't look too impressive by modern standards, but was ground breaking at the time.

If anything, the book is even more relevant now.

I feel like it doesn't hold up well specifically because we're living it now, but I dunno if I agree on it being overrated. For me, feels like 'out of date' or maybe just depressing is a better word.

When that stuff was fantastical and served as a warning, it had meaning, now it just makes us sad. It's like oh yeah, we have that now, but it's not even the government doing it, just some random snack company and we're all just going along with it.

Yeah, some of these criticisms are bad just on their face. Godfather is too slow for you? Come on. Is Rambo to slow for you as well? What about Speed?

Some of this just feels like kids who just graduated from watching Paw Patrol deciding they should veto what anyone else puts on the TV.

If you want to throw a fit because everything isn't Marvel, I guess that's fine for you. But don't be shocked when you're not invited back to College Movie Night.

But I can't watch the Godfather and doomscroll at the same time, so it's objectively bad.

Try Jim Jarmusch’s Stranger than Paradise. It’s great, it’s a classic, but you’re going die out of boredom if The Godfather is already too much for you.

And if you survive that you can move right on to Eraserhead.

Plain and pepperoni are two different things!

In a similar vein, I'm a sausage pie guy. Give me some ground sausage on pizza and I'll eat that for life. Anytime I get together with people, there's always the "what toppings" discussion, and people bring their fucking bullshit to the table, and I say get sausage, and people go mehhh mehhh mehhh, and you know what? Everyone eats the goddamn sausage, and were left with olives and mushrooms, and peppers and onions, and fucking Hawaiian.

So I appreciate it. The classics are classics for a reason.

You might want to actually try one of those fancy restaurants, you might be surprised.
But also maybe it's better to not bother and be happy with what you got

You can try fusion genres of jazz with something you like, and see if it's fun that way. E.g. you've posted about The Lords of the New Church, who seem to have been playing punk and post-punk:

Jazz with post-punk: James Chance & The Contortions

Jazz-mathcore: Needle Play

Instrumental noise-rock/math-rock/punk-jazz: Lanzallamas

I might be able to throw in more names if you name other genres. In particular, I have a bunch of various jazz-metal, e.g. jazz-grindcore/ska: Le Scrawl.

It's interesting you say that because jazz bars aren't exactly a roaring success anymore. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the fact that jazz was considered counterculture, and people like that aspect of it. These days no one really cares about jazz and no one's trying to ban it. And it's interesting that now it's less popular.

Maybe it wasn't actually ever good?

The book is better anyway

Interstellar is a very plot driven movie, it's leads you by the hand saying "these things are happening, in this order, and it's interesting and engaging", and when the movie is done you get it: the journey is at an end, and the good guys conquered the big problems, emotions were felt along the way, and you're not really left with any lingering questions afterwards. It's a great movie, but it's also a rather easy movie to enjoy if you're into space stuff.

Whereas 2001, aside from being an absolute visual feast, is more abstract and theme driven, about humanity's place in the cosmos, and it makes you ask deeper questions, but you must actually pay attention and discover those questions and explore them in your own mind to actually engage with the movie. It's not a passive experience, and your engagement with the movie can stay with you for days. It's certainly a much more difficult movie to enjoy.

When I was in my 20s, I hated movies like 2001 and Bladerunner, I found them so tedious, because I wanted scifi like Aliens goddammit. Later, I learned to really enjoy these more cerebral movies that took effort to engage with, because they were so rewarding when that effort paid off.

I love dune. I would never watch it with probably anyone ever.

you have been spoiled by the cinematography of the modern age. almost 100% of all the camera tricks from the last 70 years of film history came from Citizen Kane.

without Kane you wouldn't have Star Wars, Ms Doubtfire, James Bond, Conan The Barbarian, Terminator, Superman, X-Men.

Sometimes a film isn't just about the story. sometimes the film is the story. This is why film is considered one of the mediums of classical art.

If a picture is worth a thousand words, a film renders us speechless.

Really? Just watched Casablanca again for the 5th time. I love it.

Casablanca is unironically one of my favourite movies! It's better than most of the chaff coming out in cinema today.

It builds tension on so many levels throughout its length, while also being funny and evocative. It puts admirable people in vulnerable places where they rely on other uncaring and self-motivated individuals, and then does it again with higher stakes. When tension is at its maximum its then deflated all with a single line callback to the start of the movie.

I love Napoleon Dynamite because all of the characters remind me of people and small details about people that makes it feel nostalgic in a way that makes a lot of the weird subtle humor land for me. There isn't really a story, and the pacing is very much at the pace of small town USA, so anyone who doesn't get it will most likely find it either boring or impossible to follow for sure.

Definitely not for everyone.

It's easier to read the subtext and make connections, catch Easter eggs, etc. Although sometimes your brain is just making shit up.

I got super stoned before I watched RoboCop 2 a few months ago, which I hadn't seen before. Holy shit the satire is deeply baked into every scene. I was laughing more than I have in years.

You poor son of a bitch

Grandalf is very disappointed with you, he's trying to help you.

Put meat back on your menu.

My experience of the movies is so far, so removed, from your experience, that I can hardly believe we belong to the same species, that we share a common mother somewhere in the last dozen, hundred, thousands of generations.

don't forget Grave of the Fireflies (1988), a heartwarming animated tale of siblings sticking together through adversity in Japan.

They'd probably include all that extra stuff about the movie industry and the woman who's vagina was too big.

Pretty funny that you based your entire criticism off of the repeated to ad nauseam Family Guy quote, and obviously zero actual experience or knowledge about the movie.

It is perfectly fine that you don't like it, taste is completely subjective, but your description of it is objectively wrong.

Oh man. I fell asleep 5 times before I could finally finish this.

It's art. I love the movie. I appreciate the aesthetics, the cinematography, and the practical effects.

In 2006 I fell asleep watching that movie. Highly recommend falling asleep watching that movie. The background noise is artistically stunning and sleep-promoting soothing.

I used to throw westerns on if I'd had one too many drinks and going to bed was not recommended. I was trying to turn off my mind, but also not get into watching something, and a boring ass old spaghetti westerns was it. Lots of silences, strange noises to keep me from really falling asleep, it was perfect.

Ended up really getting into the genre because of it. Fistful of Dollars trilogy is fantastic. Once Upon a Time in the West is amazing. The Shooting is a lesser known acid western starring a young Jack Nicholson that was just weird.

I think a reason I like them now is a lot of them are really well directed with these sprawling desert shots juxtaposed with in-your-face views of the characters. The movies don't tell you what's going on, you just watch.

I love the Dune books and I agree.

Here's a teenager with superpowers whose dad, a benevolent duke who cares for his citizens, is murdered in a game of politics. The teenager son wants revenge while also trying to avoid terrible future that he can see with his superpowers. WHAT? Noooooooo, you're not supposed to root for the teenager seeking revenge, what's wrong with you???

In addition to this utterly stupid theme, there's also the absolute hack writing. I read first three books and stopped.

Frank Herbert should've written essays about charismatic leaders instead of Dune books.

I liked the new movies though.

What is your opinion of Historical Action?

See: Tora! Tora! Tora! (Movie about Pearl Harbor that has excellent practical effects throughout and is accurate enough one could almost call it a documentary)

I've got a movie for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalker_(1979_film)

Blue Velvet was good, lots of fun weird shit but also a plot that moved along. It made me rent Eraserhead which in turn almost made me give up movies entirely.

I think our brains are too fried by smartphones that we are not able to enjoy a slow movie anymore.

Unpopular opinion: Clockwork Orange isnt a controversial masterpiece, it's just crap propped up by snobby film classes and preached as being good so people feel a need to say they liked it.

Tarantino is a hack who just makes movies to say the n word

What's the problem with Kubrick?

Recently watched Citizen Kane for the first time. I'm surprised how well it holds up. It's better than many new movies that are coming out. But I think that says more about how shitty some new movies are.

Wrong opinion. You can definitely enjoy 2049 more, but the better film is the first. I enjoy 2049 much more often, it is a very palatable movie that appeals to a greater, higher volume selling, family-friendlier audience than the original. It's the lager vs a craft beer between the two, though.

I'm so unbelievably angry since I love this triology but also I see your point 🥲

Books, sure. The books are dense as all fuck, and I get that a lot of people aren't interested in things like the ancestry of a tree.

Movies, though, are way more efficient with the storytelling. Especially the theatrical version, despite how much is missed out compared to the extended.

I mean, is anything Harry Potter considered fine art? That's what the meme meant by cinema

I liked it a lot. Watched the longer version of the movie. I've heard the theatrical cut was not as good though.

Fantastic movie.

For a minute I thought you meant Tartakovsky, was all ready to throw down for Samurai Jack n shit. Where's my coffee at

It's about corporations taking away people's humanity. Note how few people in the movie have any empathy at all.

Robocop never actually escapes the control of the corporation. He's only able to kill that guy at the end after he was fired.

It's not a movie that demands you pick up on it's themes. You can enjoy it as a dumb action movie where you see a cyborg shoot a guy in the dick. Or you can think about what it's saying and get more from it.

It's actually more consistent with the themes of Phillip K. Dick than Blade Runner was. I do like Blade Runner, but if we're being honest, it is a little boring and only touches on PKD's themes. One of the writers on Blade Runner wrote the script to RoboCop to get more of PKDs themes into a movie. Robocop has the PKD that Blade Runner missed . So RoboCop is a more exciting movie than Blade Runner, while having more PKD.

RoboCop gets the Dick right while shooting a guy in the dick.

I get the dystopian undertones of it, but it all just felt incredibly cheesy to me.

yeah, that's the fuckin point!

sounds like you just don't like fun movies. probably because you watch them alone.

Works better as a screensaver imo

Au contraire, I've watched it fairly recently and it was beautiful in every aspect.

The sequel on the other hand...

Or the Star Wars OT...

Yeah, I really enjoyed the book as a kid, and having heard that the movie is a masterpiece I was really looking forward to seeing it for years. Such a boring movie when I finally got around to seeing it, and I don't get why the subsequent books treat it as canon over the book.

It can be a hard watch, no doubt. I'd disagree about it aging well, but I think I get where you're coming from with that too.

It's one of those movies where you have to kinda be in the frame of mind to look at it like abstract art sometimes. If you try and watch it as an actual sci-fi movie, it's gonna fail hard (the SPACE part makes it seem like a sci-fi film, but it really isn't).

It suffers from some really artsy (as opposed to artistic) pacing and editing at times. And I like the movie a good bit.